threauxdal; ellethread

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musicians writing responses and jabs at john lennon (and yoko ono!)'s ‘imagine’ are always really funny to me. both because it’s all about “singing about imagine no possessions while playing a million dollar piano” like. bruh. you’ve not made any kind of observation there. and also because they generally miss the point of the song. the simple little prayer of peace must be ridiculed. we must pick at its origin and impugn its singer. we must poke holes in its argument. they didn’t think so, but all their efforts only assisted in maintaining the status quo. but hey, at least they never had to think too deeply about it

it always comes off like “imagine no possessions”, like no, haha. sounds like commie shit. i’m imagining all of your expensive possessions right now, mister lennon! WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY.

The concept of positive prayer … If you can imagine a world at peace, with no denominations of religion—not without religion but without this my God-is-bigger-than-your-God thing—then it can be true … the World Church called me once and asked, “Can we use the lyrics to ‘Imagine’ and just change it to ‘Imagine one religion’?” That showed [me] they didn’t understand it at all. It would defeat the whole purpose of the song, the whole idea.
- John Lennon, Playboy interview (December 1980)

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Uh oh, I’m afraid I disagree! :grimacing:

I feel like the criticism is kinda earned. Doesn’t help he also filmed the video from the safety of his massive estate:

Imagine being a political activist/organizer at the time this was released, watching this ex-Beatle with more wealth than your entire community smugly suggest that you ought to dream bigger… It doesn’t help either that years later this is probably that song’s biggest cultural legacy:

Fair point that some of that criticism probably came from a position of bad faith and that the sentiment of the song alone is valid, but I also feel it remains a fair observation that the person singing it could have maybe chosen a more radical action like forfeiting his excess wealth and celebrity to better serve the people he preached to… At the end of the day, is he much better than the church he mentions in that statement?

Hope this doesn’t come off as too harsh, I just have a hard time viewing Lennon as this entirely innocent figure. He seems in a lot of ways to be kinda representative of the failed hippie movement he came from. I don’t think highlighting that necessarily means you’re pro status-quo. Feels like a false equivalency to me.

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i don’t think it’s a fair observation that someone “could have maybe chosen a more radical action”. you could levy such a charge at anything, no? if i offer a hand to a stranger who has fallen, you could say “ah but you should have offered your umbrella and walked them to their car”

i think this is just petty. who gives a fuck about anything but making the world better? the song isn’t about dreaming bigger, and it isn’t written to the activists. it’s a lowest-common denominator anthem designed to ever-so-gently shift the overton window. if lennon is culpable for not being “more radical”, aren’t all other artists who never lifted the first finger for a better world even more damned?

i’ll admit i haven’t watched either of the videos in your post. 1. because i absolutely do not care about whatever music video lennon filmed. i only care about the song. maybe i’ll watch it at some point. 2. i am scared about the second one. i don’t wanna do it lol.

i think much of its surface-level cultural legacy is a disservice to the song. that’s fine - the song is a low-aimed shot. it isn’t a particularly complicated thing.

and it’s fine to be critical of it, of course.

but people like donald fagen and elvis costello actually writing anti-Imagine music - making songs with direct responses… well. it’s valid, sure. but it’s not a good idea. it’s a much worse idea than writing “imagine”, for example.

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most of the anti-imagine sentiment i’ve understood is that it is hubris to even try. gotcha! you’re a millionaire! THEREFORE: your imagination is invalid, haha!

there’s always a way to invalidate you if the status quo is in any way threatened. one needn’t be a “defender” of it to fortify its defenses. the people i’m thinking about are definitely not activists.

anyway, the people most vocally critical of lennon in the early 70s are vastly more likely to just be conservative than leftists, i’m sure. i think viewing it as a failing of being not radical enough perhaps misses the forest a bit.

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to me, it’s very obvious what the goal of Imagine is - it’s an earnest attempt to do something to make the world better with the greatest gift Lennon had available to him. that’s commendable, i think. i don’t think there’s much to argue with, really. i think this is why a certain strain of ideological anti-Imagine shit bothers me.

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the best anti-Imagine song was written before Imagine lol

The Mothers of Invention (Frank Zappa) - Oh No

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first of all, just in this very narrow context? yes.

in a broader context? also yes.

but even more importantly. thinking about who is better in the context of the song Imagine is actually kind of a red herring? it’s kind of my entire beef?

it’s just a prayer to imagine new possibilities for society~!

i think having a huge problem with it and being publicly and cynically vocal about it says vastly, vastly more about the person saying those things than about lennon or imagine

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anyway sorry if i’m going off today. i just like the concept of the song and think it was such a nice gesture to put something like that into the world. i’d like to write a song people might care to mention and argue about long after i’m dead.

i think lennon is probably one of my biggest musical influences. i don’t necessarily care too much for him as a person, but i think his music is just really important to me and he had some other good ideas at times.

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Yes, you could levy such a charge at anyone but that’s not what I’m doing. My aim here is pointed squarely at John Lennon, former member of one the most financially successful bands on the planet. He was not just anyone. He was someone of considerable wealth, power and influence. He was in a unique position to use that wealth and influence for the betterment of society. If some random busker on the street wrote Imagine, then sure, I’d have no dispute here. The point I’m making is specifically about it being Lennon.

No, they aren’t, maybe other artists of a similar position to him but not all artists. I’m not suggesting this. My point is that it is well within Lennon’s power and other wealthy celebrities like him to go beyond simple platitudes and directly change material conditions for those around them, they are uniquely positioned to do this. I’m genuinely not trying to be petty in highlighting this, just trying to make clear the unique position of power people like him had/have. I would offer to the same criticism to other wealthy celebrities that exist now. This exact kind of disparity is what bothers me so much.

I think it feels a bit like you’re saying “it’s fine to be critical about this but I refuse to be!”, which… I mean fair enough! That’s your perogative! My aim here isn’t to say you’re wrong for enjoying the song or Lennon’s music more broadly. But I also think it could be of some benefit to engage a bit more with the criticism, the videos I posted and the broader legacy of what Lennon actually did versus just focusing on the song alone. I think the discomfort you reference about this might actually be an important detail in itself here! I think it can be a healthy thing to put these sorts of pop culture figures under further examination from time to time to better understand our complicated relationship to them and how they may sometimes not be all they’re cracked up to be within the narrow view of popular culture…

This does sound kind of pathetic and maybe this is the route of our misunderstanding here. I’m not sure I’ve heard their anti-imagine music, I was more just basing what I said off the idea of criticising Lennon’s motives in the first place… If that music is what it sounds like then I probably agree with you on that point!

Anyway, I have to go have a shower and get some errands done so probably don’t have time to respond to the other bits you posted right now. I think the essence of what I’m saying though is it is probably somewhat justified to be bit weary of John Lennon and his messaging even if you find yourself enjoying his music. Hope I didn’t come off too personally judgemental! I grew up being a massive Beatles fan so it’s not like I’m trying to position myself as being in anyway superior here. Just feel like there’s room for stuff to be a bit more complicated… In the words of Ringo Starr: “Peace and Love! :v:” (Just imagine I’m doing a really bad Liverpool accent at the same time :wink:)

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see this is also a bit context-collapsing. the beatles probably have one of the widest gaps between how much they earned for other people and how much they earned for themselves of any artist in history, especially in 1971. they were not the primary benefactors of any of their (extremely excellent) music.

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the context i can provide here is that this is my entire project. i am very critical of Lennon. i don’t know that i can really explain what i mean by that, but… he was probably my first “musical hero” and the one that most emphatically confirmed that i would never again have any musical heroes because we are not meant to have “heroes”. i think he kind of sucks as a person for a good portion of his life.

but i will absolutely die on the (specific) hill that Imagine was good and Lennon was good for putting it into the world. i still don’t think any “but he could have done” stuff is very useful. it’s not more valid here than whataboutism is in any other context, i don’t think.

the reason i didn’t want to engage with the music video is because it’s a different thing. it’s not because i don’t want to engage with what i’m arguing about, it’s because engaging with it inevitably refocuses this back to a JOHN LENNON, THAT (RICH) GUY, PERSONALLY, thing, at which point anything is justifiable because we’re talking about a flawed human being, one that people can build up unbelievable amounts of resentment and jealousy for (and clearly have).

it’s pointless to get into that realm, in my experience. no one’s overall sentiment about john fucking lennon is going to be updated, i think. people can write all kinds of narratives in their heads.

if you’re talking about a person, in particular a figure as larger-than-life as lennon, your personal feelings are unavoidably going to be relevant. if we’re instead talking about a song for which the project is to try and make something that as many people will hear as possible that could maybe make someone think twice about the possibility of a better world? your personal feelings about mister lennon are significantly less relevant to the discussion

i have some context for the contents of that video, i’m not trying to put fingers in my ears and go neener-neener. i’m trying to focus on the thing i wanted to talk about - the song imagine and how people miss its very simple meaning and what that says about them rather than the the dead dude who wrote it

the reason i didn’t want to engage with whatever that second video is is because i’m quite sure it was recorded after dude was dead. it seems distracting. i’ll do it, though! for you!

the song is really its own thing

john lennon is a really good songwriter, and that’s the axis i care about him on. i don’t care about his films or music videos and don’t find them essential to his work.

i’ll watch the videos and post something about them!

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the first video (the official music video) is pretty fine. i like it, even.

i think the argument against it is the same thing i’m criticizing - look at that mansion he’s walking into! this is so pretentious! no possessions?! he’s got a massive estate - song invalidated and successfully dismissed.

who does this guy think he is? he should shut up about politics and make rock’n’roll.

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the second video only proves that the song was successful on one of its axes - to be as catchy as possible so that as many people as possible would be exposed to the message

it being used as counter-evidence, like it somehow diminishes the song that people do bad, naive versions of it all the time is exactly the sentiment i am annoyed by, i think. i’m not annoyed by you, to be clear. i like hashing things out and discussing things.

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i think this understanding is just not accurate to the reality in several ways, and that’s where our conflict lies.

a) i’m fairly confident his 1971 wealth is not as excessive as you’re imagining
b) the person singing it also could have just kept making songs about walruses and never risked something subversive or tried to make the world better. unless you criticize all musicians on those grounds, it’s still whataboutism. i also don’t think lennon deserves extra special criticism because the beatles had a lot of hits (“financially successful”)?
c) in the grand scheme of things, especially given a), i am fairly certain lennon’s imagine was a greater gift to the world than him “forfeiting his excess wealth”. that’s a great thing, to be sure. i’m currently not “forfeiting my excess wealth” - is that a moral failing?
d) your use of the word “preached” here is also very indicative of strange standards. lennon never claimed to be a religious figure that i know of. it seems like a projection rooted in the idle elevation status quo - perhaps a lack of imagination, no pun intended

it’s wrong to hear someone say “imagine this” and then say, “look in the mirror buddy” if the only point is to ultimately conclude that better things aren’t really possible and even suggesting to imagine such things can only come from someone so naive and disconnected.

i ultimately believe this simply isn’t fair and a good faith understanding of the song. it’s a standard unapplied in general, and the attempt to justify the standard in this specific case i don’t believe holds up

tl;dr i believe having written imagine is actually more useful than lennon having given all his wealth away. to not even consider that possibility is to fail to understand the song

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i can’t communicate properly and i’m also multi-tasking and also i’m manic and also i’m having an exceptionally horrible day and week and you can probably disregard everything i’ve ever written

i do still think Imagine was a good thing to get into the world

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to clarify the above, i am not trying to unsay what i’ve said, just that i keep being distracted and i could have probably put everything i wanted to say about lennon and imagine in a single post requiring no one’s feedback and my point would have come across soooo much better. but i’m imperfect and in retrospect, i see my follies more clearly.

i think i got at exactly what i was aiming at earlier, which was that if a verifiably poor person was singing imagine, you’d not have anything negative to say about it. to me, that says the song is perfectly fine, it’s lennon people have an issue with.

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another thought experiment: i’m curious if paul mccartney deserves more criticism for not writing imagine nor anything that might ever risk his anodyne popularity than john lennon deserves for writing it

“too many people preaching practices”, was it, paul?

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paul did later write “Give Ireland Back to the Irish” so. he had some social goals too, ya know

john also wrote a song with a title i’ll not reprint here lol. they were all pieces of shit

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Yeah, I think this is the point I was trying to make but that it’s also difficult for me to separate the song from the person who sang it. They both go sorta hand in hand for me.

I’m a bit worried about continuing this discussion if I’m being totally honest! Like, I do have further points to discuss but I worry that might lead us both into a miserable exchange. I don’t like feeling like I hijacked your thread to talk shit about something you clearly hold dear so maybe we should leave things here? Also, given you’ve had a rough week, I’m not keen about potentially making it worse! No hard feelings, hope ya feel better :heart:

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i respect it, i’m really terribly manic today so i’m just a bundle of excitement and confusion! i don’t want to cause any harm, i just realized i have so much to say and express. i 100% love your perspectives and i only disagree strongly in a purely debate-club way. i sympathize with all of your points and have held many similar positions myself. i could also still change my mind - i’m always trying to learn new things.

the last thing i wanted to add here is about the above

the song imagine is cool, it’s a good tune, i like that little A-Bb-B piano figure and i’m obsessed with I-IV vamps (listen to my music, it’s EVERYWHERE, you’ll never unhear it lol), but the thing i hold dear is actually not the song. it’s the idea that music can make a difference at all. i don’t necessarily always believe it can, but i think it’s worth believing in either way.

that’s really the subtext of the song, i guess? it doesn’t require knowing anything other than the words and the tune, it doesn’t require any context to come across. it just says “here’s a try, maybe…” and that mere attempt is fucking inspiring. even with a bit of context, to get to the top of the music world and try and use that exposure for a clearly sincere attempt at good? that’s pretty rare. it’s very inspiring. i think that idea is vastly, vastly more important to me than the song, and that’s what i am really passionate about

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