system shock 2 SUCKS... or does it???

King of Posters
#1

damn system shock 2 is still extremely good

it’s crazy how much more effective the atmosphere of this game is. it’s a stronger horror game than any of its successors.

it’s weird because in theory having better lighting, graphical, and audio fidelity seems like things would naturally be scarier. but I really think the atmosphere in this game is effective because of how minimal things are. like in terms of audio there are a small amount of atmospheric sounds at any given time but aside from that every sound is very distinctive and carries a specific meaning. the stereo panning is primitive. there’s no observable “spatial” reverb of any kind. I just feel like as a result you’re much more aware of ambient sound and then sudden appearance of creature noises are much scarier as a result.

this highlights my biggest problem with bioshock. it’s just loud. everything is so loud at all times. guns and explosions are frequent and deafening. and you’re constantly awash in this complex soundscape. it’s just too much! but I feel like all modern AAA games are like this in terms of sound design.

anyway I’m just shocked (heh) at how well this game is holding up in pretty much every way.

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#CYBERPUNK 2077 :computer:
I can't believe today was a good play (Games you played today)
#2

powers that be plz demod toups for thoughtcrime or possibly just lies

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#3

And visual design!

Anyway I’m not a SS2-actually-isn’t-good revisionist but it is full of crap design and only saved by its writing and atmosphere.

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#4

I haven’t revised anything SS2 was never good

SS2’s writing was never good

the only good thing in SS2 until it’s ground into nothing by tedium

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#5

oh right this is what it’s like to be on shrug’s side of one of these

not as gratifying as I’d hoped

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#6

Exasperating opponent, miserable ally

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#7

seriously reconsidering my position now that I know Felix is on my side :doomthunking:

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#8

it’s honestly no worse design wise than any of it successors

arguably it’s better

idk I haven’t played it since release so I’m sure my opinion will evolve as I get further but neither bioshock nor 2017’s prey leave you feeling completely helpless and desperate for the first section.

so many of these games just throw upgrades at you and system shock 2 is like yeah maybe you’ll be able to use more than one weapon in another 6 hours. good luck wrenching everything until then.

I mean I know it’s broken in a lot of other ways but I still feel like this aspect is an important element of its atmosphere.

also the environments just feel so miserably claustrophobic and it works so well.

#9

This is not high praise. Also you can compare it against things other than its direct design sequels, like Thief or Deus Ex, which are waaaay better.

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#10

Actually you wanna know a game superior to SS2 in its own house on its own terms in everything but art design and atmosphere? Arx Fatalis

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#11

that sound design is absolutely killer

And I agree, the first two decks of System Shock 2 are its high points and more effective intros than any other horror branches on this tree

I’m sorry but while I won’t defend a post-Minecraft survival game I’ll defend SS2’s early implementation of that toolset

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#12

Hoo boy are you ever wrong in that. It was primordial in its skill system at best and gesture spellcrafting and trap choices (bows) at worst. Writing? Reincarnation of an evil god by a cult in a fantasy world populated by trolls, goblins, humans and “missing” dwarves? I guess the snake people are pretty neat but that’s an exception to the norm.

Arx Fatalis was an interesting game to play but it certainly isn’t fleshed out to be notable.

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#13

I really wish I could ever get the spellcasting gestures to take fewer than three dozen attempts to work

I’ve gotten stuck at the first mandatory spellcast every time I’ve tried to run through it again in the past ten years, it really makes me sad

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#14

I mean duh, but my point is that in many ways it’s actually still better than them.

(Also idk I think prey is really good for what it is. It’s still massively flawed in a lot of ways too of course.)

I know people love to cream their jeans over ss2 but I have never viewed it as a masterpiece in any way. It’s more like it accomplishes amazing things despite being a total mess. And for its time it was a fairly innovative approach to a narrative RPG.

Obviously Thief and Deus Ex are “better” but they are not really the same kind of experience as System Shock 2 whereas Bioshock et al are explicitly modeled after it.

Thief is maybe closer but it’s a linear game and the RPG stuff is toned down compared to system shock.

I just think there are still things to learn from this game and there is still a lot of worth in playing it today.

1 Like
#15

That’s true, but I think the backdrops evoke loneliness in their grand scale and their surprising amount of variation over multiple playthroughs.

#16

  1. SS2’s skill system is even more primordial. AF’s is weird and cool. What other games have skills like Intuition and Object Knowledge.

  2. Gesture spellcasting is great. I found it easy to get the hang of. Combining runewords to create spells is the coolest. Plus you can precast and buffer spells for combat use, another bit of D&Dish depth to the system (it’s kind of like memorizing spells or something). Anyway nothing is as finicky and irritating as weapon degradation in SS2

  3. SS2 has trap choices but they’re much less funny because

  4. AF’s somewhat more open, and much more simulationist, world is a much better playground for the games’ immersive sim qualities and allows for more lateral solutions to problems

  5. The plots in both are bog standard stuff and nothing to write home about

  6. AF’s crazy looping drone soundtrack is probably the equal of SS2’s impeccable sound design

1 Like
#17

Arx has equipment degradation too, don’t forget, with the equivalent in Object Knowledge to SS2’s Repair skill in fixing the items. There’s also equivalency to Research in terms of discovering what certain items picked up do. The simulationist qualities are…present I guess in letting you craft things in-world or weighing down pressure plates but they don’t give large alternatives to problems, just uses for their systems. You won’t progress without engaging in them; both games are pretty linear once you get down to it.

I think it comes down to what your interests lie. Yours appear to be grounded in fantasy whereas I’m more inclined towards the science-fiction angle.

#18

System Shock 2 is a bad game I am on the Shrug side. The atmosphere is good until you deal with the same non-obstacle monsters 10000 times while collecting bullshit. Then it loses all tension. You clear a level and they keep respawning, there’s no risk to you dying because you also keep respawning, etc etc. No tension at all. The skill system is definitely way more primordial than in AF (I wouldn’t even compare them tbh) and they have the same issue of trap options.

Arx Fatalis is brilliant. Its the real successor to Ultima Underworld (whereas System Shock 1 doesn’t really have a successor). AF had a good and interesting skill system with a few glaring issues that can be rectified with a bit of foreknowledge (This isn’t uncommon to 90s PC RPGs) Gesture spellcasting is a great idea executed less than well. BUT the quest design in Arx Fatalis is amazing. Major major parts of the game can be routed in completely different ways depending on how you play. This isn’t just the trivial “do I stealth, social, or violence past this door” but entire quest branches that can only be accessed in specific circumstances.

The sound design too is way better than it needs to be. Cuba alluded to the looping drone soundtrack but to expand on that, its all locational 1-3 second audio loops of ambient droning along with snippets of melody or harmony, so that moving through the world produces a unique sound texture unlike anything.

Writing wise, here’s what Arx Fatalis does well: The protagonist is a weird powerful emotionally vacant amnesiac for a reason that actually makes sense and reifies the rules of the game within the setting. This is cool.

Everyone living underground because the sun is gone and the surface is frozen? That’s just a cool setting and justification for a game to be located entirely in underground spaces.

The (Very muppety) goblins and trolls and other creatures being creatures with a society and culture and not generic monster antagonists? I love that, please let more games do that.

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#19

Anyway, everything SS2 did well was done even better in System Shock 1, except the control scheme

the same could be said about Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis, (except for the otherwise more conventional control scheme, the gesture casting is a worse version of UUW’s rune casting) but Arx Fatalis doesn’t ladle on a bunch of poorly handled and ill conceived shit onto its foundation.

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#20

SS2 is one of the few games which has left me awash with warm dread. Toups, I like SS2.

It probably doesn’t hold up. But back then, even 15 years ago, it was doing great things.

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