I still haven’t played arx fatalis but I want to after having enjoyed prey so much, since apparently that was the secret inspiration behind it.
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Ultima Underworld 2 is better than both of them though because of the whacked out worlds you go to
just ignore the horrible opening sewer dungeon plz
also prey is better than system shock 2
also i agree the opening two decks of system shock 2 are great but it just nosedives after that
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I think I agree with this but SS1’s control scheme is a huge problem that can’t just be handwaved away.
When are those people gonna finish that cool ass looking remake so we can all play the best Shock game and stop talking about this crap
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don’t make me bring up the quadra again
I just find comparing it to a fantasy RPG or whatever strange because what I like about system shock is specific to its setting and atmosphere
like idk y’all I don’t always play games for mechanics or whatever, that’s generally what I’m least interested in. they matter insofar as they contribute to atmosphere and narrative.
what I enjoy about SS2 is that the rpg stat building is obtuse and it’s not at all obvious what you should be putting modules to and that is how real life feels
it’s a very compelling experience to have to deal with that confusion when under an enormous amount of pressure in an extremely hostile environment
like most games it’s like “what kind of cool abilities/powers do you want”
this game is more like “choose your meager, mostly useless tools to maybe slightly increase your miserable odds of surviving this hell”
I loved prey but I wish stuff was more useless. I wish repairing weapons wasn’t so trivial. your shit should constantly be breaking. you should have to run away most of the time. enemies should respawn much more actively. you should never feel safe in these games.
system shock 2 at least tries to create that feeling of hopelessness and oppressive difficulty. it trips over itself in that it does provide you with ways to break it, but still. I think that alone is worth much more than other games of its ilk and it’s why I don’t particularly get comparisons to thief or whatever.
the biggest problem with system shock 2 is the regeneration chamber thing, but honestly people are gonna save scum anyway. I just wish it cost more nanites or they would occasionally break down or something idk.
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i haven’t tried it but perhaps a higher difficulty level will provide something closer to this experience
I played on the highest difficulty
I watched some video review where he tested what the various difficulty levels do and it’s literally just changing how much damage you take and how much health enemies have
I don’t think it affects how many supplies you get
I think the influence of Resident Evil and the survival horror boom is underappreciated on System Shock 2. The punishing resource game, the respawning enemies, and the forced retreading read as attempts to pull in the clumsy, long-term planning of those games in an attempt to build sustained dread. Those are the aesthetics in which I appreciate System Shock 2 – fear of the environment, fear of poorly handled situations leading to later loss, working alongside the contamination themes as the losses mount.
The skill tree and power curve most directly work against this (and make a compelling argument that the RPG aspects of this design style are fundamentally incompatible with horror), which is why the early game experience is the best, and the jump to the Von Braun is just a nosedive, when the only move they have left to play is action.
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I don’t think RPG elements are fundamentally incompatible. I think that people usually associate RPG elements with power fantasies, and that is incompatible with survival horror.
I think it’s fine (and theoretically beneficial) to include those elements if you just heavily nerf everything.
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I believe this was the working name for the V1 rocket
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hmmmm
RPG stats without growth? Sure, it’s always balanced against the growth in enemies you face, so relative power doesn’t necessarily change much, but it’s very hard to get away from the resource growth, the changes that let the player stay out from camp longer, survive on the field.
Traditional horror games have had similar problems as they include the weapon progression; I guess the problem is sometimes handled well (the RE2 remake manages to marry not-terrible action into survival horror in a way that doesn’t detract from the horror).
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I’m not saying no growth I’m just saying growth shouldn’t guarantee success against the obstacles that block you. ideally it just gives you more options but you should never feel comfortable handling any situation the game throws at you as a result of leveling or whatever
I guess what I’m saying about SS2 is that it seems oppressive and hellish but then you figure out the mechanics and it isn’t any more. Separate from the power curve, I mean. Once you figure out how to wrench all the zombies without getting hit it’s just like, stop respawning please this is annoying. In other words I agree I’m not a mechanics-first guy but the mechanics work against the atmosphere in SS2 rather than supporting it.
That being said the ships are still wonderfully compelling environments and I still enjoy the creepy techno-filth even when I’m not mechanically scared. It remains a great game on that adventure game, almost walking sim level. But it’s pretty weird to say “I don’t care about mechanics” and then say “the game is good because the mechanics reinforce the atmosphere” I mean which is it dude
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The character creation in system shock 2 was directly lifted from the tabletop rpg Traveller, which does not have stat growth or leveling up or anything like that, so it shows some clear misguidedness that they reverted to default character progression mechanics instead of hewing closer to the philosophy of Traveller’s design because it does undercut the atmosphere.
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I don’t think I was unclear when I said mechanics are only important to the extent that they support atmosphere and storytelling
and because the atmosphere and narrative are very specific and system shock I don’t feel like I can get the same enjoyment from thief or whatever.
anyway I don’t think we disagree about where system shock 2 fails, I just happen to still enjoy the game as is despite its flaws. and it’s a small revelation to me that none of the “shock” inspired games to come in its wake seem to even really get the basics right.
(prey is still good tho but I feel like it misses several major points)
prey is way too hemmed in. you cannot make a good immersive sim if it’s not all over the fucking place. that’s the problem with it, they finally made one that’s faithful and objectively good in almost every way and it’s boring
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are you saying prey would be better if it sucked more?
or if the progression were even a little less scaffolded
arkane had this problem with the first two dishonoreds where it was way too clear about this being a level and that being a level and this and that being on your skill tree and they managed to fix it for the last one, and I saw them grasping at the same thing in mooncrash but they didn’t quite get there
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I agree that ‘builds’ would have been a better approach, but it’s fair to say that there was almost no intellectual scaffolding at the time for abandoning growth; the FPS weapon growth paradigm wouldn’t be challenged until Halo, and if we identify the bulk of the work in implementing horror into this structure, then they’ve already taken on a big graft to work out.
Now, all this talk of building the game is tangential to the artifact we have, and in the end my enjoyment is largely based on that horror aesthetic and complete aesthetic package married to the promise (but not fulfillment) of growing past that.
To the extent that horror is canceled when the enemies are learnable, I might be just a slow enough learner because the enemy design is not less learnable than comparable shooter games. Hiding knowledge of how the game works is key to horror, absolutely – look at how clearly Resident Evil hides the number of shots to kill a zombie, and their respawn rules, and their Mr. X rules – but if the System Shock 2 enemies are much more learnable, is it due to the game’s RPG scaffolding encouraging that learning process?
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more like cistem shock 2
okay but really, even though ive never played this game i will always hate it because everyone talks about how shodan is soooooooo hot and NO. no she sucks
its durandal who is the good top! like shodan just mocks you and NEVER EVER rewards you or says anything nice.
durandal acknowledges your skill and never puts you in a position where he knows you’re going to die, he GUIDES you while toying with you, while shodan just straight up abuses you
like, cortana is better than shodan, at least she has a personality that isnt just ‘im evil tits!’
the twist was novel at the time I GUESS
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