In 5 most of the optional dungeon unlocks are character based; Clear the story with Character X in your group, get certain characters leveled up far enough, and so forth. Like you gotta get Tao to the end of the game if you want the dungeon that Tao’s locked behind, and there’s even a few unique events on the way there.
I kind of don’t hate this?
Woof, i would hate the shit out of that. But i also just don’t like playing roguelikes with ally characters.
Torneko: The Last Hope for PSX is marvelous, but was critically panned because roguelikes were not in vogue at the time. Probably why Chunsoft didn’t bother to localize Mystery Dungeon games after it until they had Pokémon to capitalize on
I don’t like Shiren quite as much as I used to, because the power level of everything (enemies and player abilities) is off the charts. So it’s hard counters and "get out jail free card"s all over the place.
As you learn, there isn’t that much refinement/optimization possible in your playstyle, but rather you mostly learn a checklist of “tricks” to deal correctly in a binary yes/no manner with every possible situation. So it’s a lot of “correct play” following a script, then suddenly ended at one point by a thing your script didn’t account for. So you might’ve played for an hour and learned exactly one new thing in the last 10 seconds of that run.
yeah, crawl is a lot better in terms of meaningful variance (says someone who’s never come close to finishing it), but it’s been developed a lot farther
Shiren was obviously more of a revelation in the 90s, but the localization patterns kind of hurt that progression the same way that it did for pre-Matsuno SRPGs (as with modern fire emblems)
there’s kind of a reason i’m not as huge a fan of shiren 1 as others seem to be. 5’s just a more well-rounded game
it isn’t without flaws, unfortunately.
Yeah, i dunno, y’all just described a “problem” with the game that is in fact a major component of why it is good, actually.
POSSIBLY NONSENSE HYPOTHETICAL sb tends to take an “end of history” stance towards games of the past where they can’t possibly stand on their own strengths, they always have to be working toward a future entry that supersedes it
Perhaps that’s tied to the way that vidcon sequels are more iterative than sequels in other media
Anyway, miss me with it
I do see this sometimes and I can only figure it has to do with people getting older and busier and taking the path of least resistance (newest iteration, usually). I get that priorities change but it is kind of a bummer.
I’m actually just very into the way in which successive entries in certain genres learn from one another, I don’t think (except in very very rare circumstances) it ever really means that earlier entries are made less interesting as a result and I don’t intend to be coming across that way (@sleepysmiles I think you are forever reading me as judging when I see myself musing and I don’t think that’s just on you), but the individual lines of iteration are very compelling to me
like I intensely dislike the idea that every line of inquiry is intrinsically tied to taking a broader position
My sense is that Shiren 1 is actively in love with the idea of permadeath (whereas Western roguelikes tend to treat it more coolly as just one part of the framework that makes the wider game design work). So they create these crisis situations like monster houses to really flaunt the threat of it and make the player sweat. It follows that they also need to give the player overpowered tools to deal with these situations.
This game design all works by its own value system and you aren’t wrong to think it’s good. But I also think they didn’t quite realize the potential nuance and richness they cut off when they chose to go down that path.
I’d go a step farther to say that that’s the crutch of most unsuccessful roguelites these days, too
Yeah you’re not saying anything i didn’t already know. Permadeth is the fulcrum that roguelike design turns on. Shiren 1 grows around permadeth like mushrooms, it’s lovely imo. It’s based on the idea that you are going to probably die over and over. That is not a weakness. That’s the point.
And Felix you are personalizing things i was not finna trying to make personal
I struggle to read “miss me with it” as not… engaging on that level?
anyway it’s cool, I know I presume a very confident tone which has its problems
it was a general statement, yeah
i like newer shiren more than older shiren because it’s more fun for me and it feels like a more well-rounded experience; i don’t think the original is bad, i think it’s a great game that i don’t really want to play as much by comparison
it really is not more complicated than this
Fair, apologies, could be i missed the line between saying our opinions and talking inside baseball about video games.
i think “does it hold up” (outside of like, personal nostalgia) is horseshit, personally. it has to be acknowledged because, hey, we only have so much time, not everyone is going to blindplay the first zork and shit. but if that means that zork i “doesn’t hold up” then idk like give me more things that don’t hold up?
i do definitely keep “want to play it” and “think it is totally great” pretty separate too, come to think
(play shadow tower, it definitely doesn’t hold up, but because of that it is great, ok thank you)
something “holds up” because it mirrors something modern? oh halo “holds up” because it has dual analog?
i’m just ranting
started playing horizon zero dawn. the main character is cool, and shooting the bow is fun, but i wish every fantasy game didn’t have to be set in snowy mountain land
i’m fucking sick of snowy mountain land
Just bear with it because the next area after that is a pretty sick ass desert.