this is definitely why i wound up with oro in 3s, guy has basically one combo with a minor char-specific caveats and the rest is poke timings and properties, backdash and doublejump fakery
Hell yeah Alicia
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I guess my point is that âparty modeâ is a popular, fun, and viable way to play smash bros, and I enjoy playing in that setting as much as I do 1v1 no items matches.
edit: this was meant as a reply to @ArOne
yeah on some level these are all subjective, anecdotal observations.
but I still think the barrier to entry with smash is lower, even if there still is a barrier.
that said I played plenty of 2D fighting games before picking up smash and smash just clicked for me in a way none of the others have. sure, the movement is finicky, and the core mechanic of weight percentage is not intuitive to many people, but there there are no fundamentals of gameplay that are as esoteric as complex sequences of button inputs that will just silently fail if you get them wrong. I just think that difference alone is huge. but maybe thatâs just me.
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I think one way to frame the point youâre making is that âbarrier to entryâ is defined by what level of dedication is required to be able to see all of your charactersâ animations or whatever, which I donât really agree with, but if Iâm taking that stance then I would probably have to agree that smash is more approachable in that regard. but its inputs being simpler to understand on paper makes the issue of having the most basic functions of the game potentially difficult to do consistently cause more psychic friction than the alternative, for someone like me. I can pull up a movelist in KOF and go âokay, to do my super move I have to do like 16 inputs in a second and a half, thatâs going to require some practiceâ, and situate it on a shelf in my brain as such. itâs on an aspirational tier on my pyramid of options. on the other hand, the most basic task of just moving around the screen and pressing buttons at range is instantaneous, digital, binary, reliable, unobfuscated.
just moving around in smash (let alone anything more technical than that) can feel muddy and inarticulate even once youâve learned why, and that can be a crucial point of agency to have in a game to still feel like youâre having fun. I donât think not being able to do a tiger knee motion or a combo in a fighting game is an equivalent level of disconnect from your avatar in or out of a competitive environment, and I think that really does come down to different preferences in expectations of feedback
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stray thought: a quarter circle motion is something you only have to learn once which then becomes instantly transferable to 5000 other games now available to you; smash is really only conversant with itself, which is arguably a bigger ask in meeting it halfway.
Iâd be willing to believe more people have thrown a fireball than successfully consciously performed an edge guarding sequence
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well yeah you just press B to throw a fireball
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i guess iâm trying to say that i donât necessarily think a hadoken in SF is equivalent to pressing B in smash*. itâs more like short hop fast fall, or somethingâan intentional mechanic that may not be immediately obvious that expands your range of options once you know how to do it but is not necessary to be able to say you are Playing The Game. idk why this conversation never entertains the idea that fighting games are meant to be able to be enjoyed at a pre-hadoken level of mastery. a lot of them donât even have those inputs!
iâd at least like to acknowledge that the inverse can also be true if itâs true of any of them, that smash can feel ropey and alienating to play before youâve got a handle on some of its more technical aspects, which itself is a barrier to entry. ok iâll pipe down now.
*and both games are of course designed around their execution barriers: a one-button fireball in SF would have massively different implications
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how can one person be so incorrect
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Itâs a gift
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soul calibur is kind of like, the assier version of virtua fighter with less obviously telegraphed mechanics and more movement jank. but it has cool weapons and character creation so itâs its own thing
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High level smash play is closer to weird speed running strategies than doing SF special moves. Look at all the people in this thread talking about how painful wave dashing can be. It wasnât an intended thing for the player to do.
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yeah, thatâs part of what i like about it. it feels really difficult at first, but once youâve done it enough itâs very fluid and subconscious. my brain also likes perfecting things that you have to âfeel outâ (e.g. hard platformers or trackmania) so this appeals to me.
i donât think anyone here was comparing wavedashing to SF special moves â wavedashes are pretty clearly harder to do than most special moves because it requires a specific sequence and timing of button presses on top of specific analog inputs. your success in a wavedash isnât binary â you can get shorter or longer dashes, or âtriangle jumpsâ where you didnât press dodge button soon enough after the jump button.
on top of that, a bunch of characters have different jump startup times and friction, so distances and timings change per character.
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quick, someone ask about wavedashing Luigi so we can talk about his Crisco-ass physics
I agree with your overall point, but I donât know how this alone isnât an enormous barrier to entry to anyone who isnât both very experienced with videogames and fighting games specifically.
Like assuming Iâm coming into either smash bros or kof completely naive, being a presented with a list of button combinations (on a controller that already has an intimidating number of buttons) would completely remove me from even trying. smash at least just lets muck about and have fun and actually do cool things with your character without having to spend any mental energy in advance, even if you are going to lose or canât control your movement with precision, you at least stand a chance of enjoying yourself coming in cold. I really donât think thatâs possible with most fighting games except for the super button mashy ones that everyone seems to hate anyway.
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and honestly the fact that smash is that much smoother to get into yet also has insane, archaic depths as you move to high level play is just another argument as to how it could actually be better than regular fighters. it kind of has the best of both worlds.
not saying anyone should like smash more, I donât think it can really replicate whatâs really good about street fighter et al, and itâs totally still a matter or preference. it just bugs me when people completely dismiss it as a party game or a âlesserâ fighting game just because it actually dares to cater to filthy casuals. maybe no one here is actually doing that but itâs still just kind of mildly triggering
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Yeah honestly I think thatâs part of the issue. The conversation around this outside of SB is so tainted on both sides that itâs impossible to totally separate from that.
I havenât read any of this as dismissive on either side personally, but I also have zero stake in the matter. I just want to play games with my friends so Iâll play whatever they like for at least 30 minutes
Despite my preference for Smash my most recent joyful experience with a fighting game was playing Breakers Revenge with @aislesgrises for like 2 hours, which ruled entirely. And I finally remembered the name of the game without googling it or asking someone lol
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Iâm suddenly remembering Blade Strangers, which was a traditional fightman but with one of the selling points being âSmash-style inputsâ IIRC (in addition to inscrutable Nicalis crossover energy and gratuitous fanservice). Did anyone actually play it, and how was it? (Iâm assuming itâs bad, but with the input scheme not really being a factor in itâs badness.)
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I think the maybe biggest initial difficult curve in smash is utilizing characterâs individual recoveries. Less complex than a quarter circle motion but asking people unfamiliar with the demands of controller precision to get used to âUp-B when offstageâ isnât necessarily that different in wiping a lot of ppl out due to inexperience. When I was new I gravitated towards jumping with the stick and using Kirbyâs floaty air time to remember what to press, and I assume those r the defaults to encourage players to do the same.
Comparatively, mashing in something like Darkstalkers/anime fighters/ (later)Mortal Kombat is fairly straightforward. Especially if u have an arcade-style controller u can just tell someone âthese r punches, these r kicksâ and theyâll be able to sort of accidentally bust out combos and jump real high and accidentally trigger specials on occasion. Maybe even block intentionally. Which at least avoids the sensation of only being able to sort of jab at the air while someone else is shooting fireballs out of their hands at u.
But I also feel like all this stuff is roughly equivalent in being heavily punishable by someone who has played just enough to get over that curve relative to you. Smashâs best âaccessibleâ stuff imo is having a lot of settings that gives skilled players other things to focus on or the ability to âplayâ without necessarily railroading the ppl who are new. Ppl complain about the current amount of overwhelming items, but as ppl who are âgoodâ at smash accumulate: having assist trophies/stage hazards/PokĂ©mon being a thing players have to actively fight means the results can maintain a degree of randomness/interest despite skill. One person doesnât have to intentionally heavily restrict themselves to not just steamroll the other. Which I feel like in other fighting games you sometimes have to do if ur up against someone new. Then thereâs stuff like stamina battles, additional comeback options, etc. etc.
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def donât think anyoneâs doing that, yeah. smash rules. and tbh I also have a sensitive spot for letting the narrative be that fighting games are all hopelessly and needlessly arcane in a way that smash âsolvesâ or whatever
but weâre talking past each other and oh well itâs all good
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