Making a Murderer (+ general Prestige True Crime talk)

Eh, it’s fine. Conversations have their own life.

This Serial talk makes me wonder if having read In Cold Blood would be helpful right now.

I’m pretty much in the same boat as spacetown re: Serial, though I might be a little more underwhelmed with it as an experiment. The show never really struck me as unusual in any regard. It’s essentially a super-long-form This American Life piece. I’ve always been a beat behind in understanding why it became such a big deal. I think it comes down to a lot of overripe mediums being mainstreamed all that the same time. Podcasts, NPR Innocence Stories, and True Crime have been around forever and long since passed maturity. But I guess they weren’t particularly mainstream, and the combination of all of those elements opened people to an addictive entertainment experience. Basically, I think Koenig accidentally invented the Audio Potato Chip, when she set out with some vague notion of this thing called “umami.”

JDoe, I think your conception of the actual show is skewed by its reception by…basically Reddit, as far as I can tell. As spacetown says, from the beginning and throughout the show, Koenig reports the story as ambivalent and the truth as increasingly unknowable. I definitely think the show skews more towards telegraphing the kid’s innocence than his possible guilt—it spends more time on it, makes it more compelling, and owes is essentially based on entertaining that. The weirdest thing for me as a listener is how it danced around the fact that it all came down to a witness testimony. Either the witness was a liar or not. That’s it. I guess she figured without being able to interview him, she didn’t want to lean on that, but we don’t even have a motivation as to why he would lie. So it’s essentially the most elaborate he-said-she-said in audio. Anyway, one of the primary themes of the piece is Koenig going back and forth on her personal thoughts on the case, but I don’t think she did a great job of making the listener feel that tension after building so much “He’s gotta be innocent!” momentum.

The reception to Serial outside of Reddit is, “There’s this new thing called a podcast, and this show Serial is a totally addicting Real Life Mystery!” So I agree with everyone saying that the end result was True Crimish home detective sensationalism. But I disagree with the idea that Koenig did anything to encourage that. I’m not really aware of whatever Twitter account or web presence she might have had, but I don’t think she started any of those hash tags or whatever. Did she participate in them eventually? I dunno. As I said, the actual show is a portrait of ambivalence, which is not a creative way to do a story like this, but is basically the most responsible way to report it within the medium of soft journalism.

As far as inserting yourself into a story, it’s been a thing since, like, the 60’s. I don’t think people even call it New Journalism anymore. Part of the argument supporting New Journalism is that “objective” journalism is so subjective that it’s more honest and responsible to incorporate the means of media production into the work and implicitly acknowledge the work’s inherent subjectivity. I mean, if you’re just saying you prefer “objective” over “subjective” then fine. But I disagree that journalism ought to be one or the other or that moderator-less journalism is more “mature.” That word choice seems pretty ideological.

So yeah: I’m in the “Serial didn’t bother me, but the fandom caught me by surprise; and the Jr. Detective aspect of it was was troubling.” Should be noted that Reddit Jr. Detectives spring into action unbidden all the time, though. Nobody asked the public their opinion on the Boston Marathon bombing. The internet empowers the idiocy on a new scale.

Look Tulpa, what you do in your own home is none of our business, but we will get to the bottom of it.

#freecereal #Tulpaisshady

1 Like

Oh, I haven’t watched it. Not because it’s “too close to home,” actually it’s cathartic to revel in stories of other peoples’ injustices (all lawyers, when they hang out, will immediately default to the War Story. It’s comfort food), but because I already know what it’s going to say and I have a very limited amount of leisure time.

Never. I sleep like a baby.

The systemic argument is important but weak from a personal morality point of view. Of course the system only works if there’s vigorous legitimate adversarial proceedings and blah blah blah, but that only explains why defense attorneys should exist, not why I am personally comfortable being one. Partially it is the ability, or rather compulsion, to feel true compassion, to always resist the word “evil,” to connect with every human on a human level despite the things they may have done. To abhor the warehousing of human beings in cages, to insist that doubt and skepticism is the superior way to investigate the universe, to challenge the utter faithful arrogance of the prosecutorial/law-enforcement complex.

Partially you just have to be a bit of a sociopath.

Not on occasion. Habitually, even deliberately. No lazier people have ever been entrusted with something so important. The gross negligence at every level is, in itself, criminal.

Please don’t fool yourselves. There almost does not exist such a thing as a “criminal investigation expert,” especially at the state level. Nobody can get a Master’s or Ph.D in criminal investigations. It certainly isn’t a science; it’s definitely not a discipline; it’s hardly even a trade. It runs almost entirely on hunches and received knowledge and a haggard kind of experience. It is not at all unthinkable that a bunch of redditors could do a better job investigating a case than a homicide detective.

1 Like

Yeah but not if that homicide detective is Denzel Washington.

movieswheredenzelwashingtonplaysahomicidedetective.tumblr.com #denzel

I don’t mean needing some special skill set, just like expecting that the baltimore police department is going to have the time and money and inclination to run dna tests on every random piece of trash in a big ass park for no reason when they already have this witness right here telling the entire story. and she just kind of ignores that that witness guy is the entire reason we even know about this murder at all and any explanation where honor student guy isn’t the murderer must mean drug dealer guy hatched one convoluted ass plan to murder the girlfriend of a guy he barely knew and snitch on himself so he can frame this other guy. not that she ever even seriously tries to make a case for any alternative explanation, she just points out little inconsistencies like she’s not aware people aren’t 100 percent reliable law and order witnesses, and then cues up a recording of the murderer guy in prison because he seems nice to win us back over.

to me serial is the story about how a murder guy is deeply shocked and bothered with just how little actual evidence and just a little racism it took to get him convicted of murder

As someone who actually believes that reasonable doubt is a good policy (in some countries–maybe most countries–you are explicitly guilty until proven innocent, btw), I think the jury ruling that a young man be convicted of murder as an adult, based almost completely on the testimony of another young man is itself tragic enough to justify a one hour-long bleeding heart NPR story.

The rest of the show is the Junior Detective gravy, but Cuba makes a good point. Thin Blue Line, The Jinx, and this TAL story http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/282/diy are all examples of people solving unsolved murders by essentially caring more than a professional can. Heck, the author of that Zodiac book did a pretty okay job, right? When I was in high school a kid in an essay competition got a guy to admit to a murder (stiff competition). I’m sure there are many other such examples. It’s not really that foolhardy to put that effort in, and when she embarked on it I’m sure Serial Lady knew remembered all those wrongful conviction narratives just as strongly as I do.

As far as Reddit, though: the hive mind that develops around this stuff is a total menace. Remember when a splinter group became convinced that The Man with the White Backpack (or whatever) had to be involved. Conspiracy and reality exist in a continuum on the internet.

I don’t know about you guys, but the season of True Detective based on Serial was kind of the jump the shark moment for me.

I thought they were building to an alcoholism angle, but then it just turned out that the protagonist had a wine-of-the-month subscription.

I’m kinda sad everyone seems to hate season 2 of Serial, because it sure is an interesting look at the clusterfuck of the Afghan war, but people are mad that everyone already knows whodunit so it isn’t a mystery at all.

if i woulda been a lawyer i probably woulda been a defense attorney

which is probably why i’m not a lawyer

don’t know how you do it and still find the time for a robust online presence f.t

I’ve always just assumed that like the rest of us, sadly, this forum is what Cuba does for fun and relaxation.

Totally forgot to answer this–of course I have! Actually, I didn’t put 2 and 2 together until the nephew was introduced. The first few episodes made me think of that story (among others) but only when it actually got to that moment did I realize it was the same story. They did an online bonus follow-up thing, which I’m excited to check out once I finish MaM.

The crazy/scary thing is that the Steven Avery in the Radiolab story is filed as a different person in my brain, because he’s completely written off as guilty. RL reported his guilt as absolute fact, so I took it as such. And when the documentary got to that point, I so couldn’t fathom why this kid would say these things that I really thought that Avery must have done it for a good three minutes and then that feeling decomposed into a bit of, “What could the other explanation be?” I’m pretty aware of coercive interrogation, but it wasn’t the first thing to come to my mind, and without knowing how vulnerable and impressionable this kid is it just didn’t seem like the obvious answer for such an elaborate and self-incriminating story. My thought process was basically, “What could they have offered him?” followed by, “But there’s no reason in the world that anyone would give themselves life in prison if they didn’t do it. Why attempt to take him with you for no reason?” So it was a very effective tactic. Only when you realize that the kid basically had no idea what was going on does it make complete sense. The fact that the media seemingly didn’t report that is pretty horrible.

Oh, since this is basically the Prestige True Crime thread now, I guess I’ll mention how much that detail reminded me of Memories of a Murder, a really fantastic Korean movie very loosely based on the story of the first S. Korean serial killer ever reported. Highly recommended on every level.

Oh, I don’t know anything about the facts of Serial. It wouldn’t shock me to discover that it’s actually a bad test case for “badly mismanaged case in grinding criminal system produces injustice.” It’s always the bad test cases that go mainstream (see Mike Brown), probably because it provides plausible deniability.

Undoubtedly by underserving my clients. Of course, by definition all my clients are underserved, so it’s really just choosing which will be even less well served than others. My job is defined by a single word: triage.

Also don’t forget the two kids and the 1.5 hour each way commute and the wife who works 16 hour days as a medical resident. But who’s counting?

Anyway, I wouldn’t call my online presence particularly robust. I read sb and that’s it.

This is the thing that most horrifies me when considering jobs like criminal defense lawyer, doctor, psychiatrist, school teacher, etc.

I don’t know if I could handle the idea that any minor slacking off or simply off-hours personal time could have been spent on the people who ostensibly rely on me. I already feel too much responsibility towards The Office and work more hours than I probably should.

I guess that feeling would in theory wear off, though? But I know all my friends who were young teachers were burned out after about a year. NYC is likely particularly trying in this regard, though, partially because the teachers sometimes end up with more responsibility for their students than appropriate and because–as with every bureaucracy in NYC–schools (especially charter schools) function on a basis of routinely manipulating people into overworking into exhaustion.

I am too! it’s actually really good! and it’s making me reevaluate my reaction to season 1, which is what all that stuff up above this post was about

I’m saving up season 2 of Serial (because I hate suspense and consequently love to binge), and knew nothing about it until this thread.

It’s kind of a relief that it won’t be more innocence true crime.

It’s not as if Koenig was ever a crime reporter, so I can’t imagine that she wanted to spend however many years dedicated to that one avenue of journalism.

That’s stupid. Don’t do that. Not in your job.

It takes a certain something. Sociopathy I guess I’d call it again. In the end you have to at least partially dissociate your efforts from the consequences visited on your clients. In part the system is built to allow this (I did the best I could but the judge still fucked my guy). It certainly gives you a more relaxed view on what other people find stressful in their lives.

Sounds like a bunch of weakasses to me, j/k

I think there’s a big difference between being crushed by a system and being exploited by your side. Psychologically, one thing we have going for us is a trench mentality - we’re all brother and sister soldiers, in this together, fighting a noble losing war against an impossible tide of injustice. That camaraderie saves you. When it’s your agency itself that sells you out, that’s when the rot and demoralization sets in. Luckily our agency has a decent budget and good people and an extremely strong internal culture. Actually that’s one of the things that attracted me to it in the first place.

Yeah the thing with season 2 is that it is really early on established what happened. that is like the first 3 episodes, and there is very little arguing over the facts of the event (Bergdahl left his post, got grabbed by some Taliban, spent 5 years in captivity, got traded for to come home, pissed off A LOT of people), but there is a lot of exploration as to why it happened and why people reacted the way they did.

It’s not so much a mystery as just an in depth exploration of what Afghanistan is/was and how it affected one specific person, which in turn messed with a lot of people.

True story. Don’t do this. The Office learns to expect it and fuck that.

Eh. I like my new job a lot more than my last one. I’m working in the same company (different branch, totally different staff, cooler boss), and it’s really entirely up to me. I usually end up staying an hour late, just because I’m working on something, and I feel like I should wrap it up. If I stay later than that, like, into an eleventh hour, it’s usually because I’m genuinely invested in what I’m doing and am enjoying myself. Really all the stress and deadlines of my last position are pretty much gone. Used to be I’d only be staying late due to a crazy deadline, and I’d be really stressed while I was there and kind of hate myself for it afterward. Now, I no longer have the feeling that my job has nothing to do with contributing to me as a person.

My job used to be planning trips in Excel and making InDesign itineraries, which basically contributed nothing to my interests or any career I’d want to have. It was just being paid to have my time taken. Now I’m designing various organizational systems and learning lots about information systems and talking a lot with marketing guys. It’s a lot more up my alley and dovetails with some stuff I work on on the side. Plus, it gives me the ability to pivot into various career paths I might enjoy, so there’s a feeling that my time is very well spent on a few different levels.

So yeah: it was probably dumb before, but not really too dumb now. Sometimes I probably stay too late, but the coercive pressure to do so is at minimum. If I’m being honest, if I were the first to leave every day it probably would degrade my rep in the company, but I don’t actually feel a pressure to stay late, probably because naturally do it on my own.

In conclusion: I am rationalizing very minor workaholic behaviors.

Actually, the pressure I get is to pretend that I’ll check work e-mails on the weekend, which I refuse to do, with some exceptions.

Some tweets that run down one of the more “minor” injustices that criminal defense lawyers deal with.