Diablo 4: What Kind Of good game Will This Be?

D3 actually got really good the past few years when they started doing seasonal gimmicks that enabled new builds or ways of pushing so you could do dumb shit like that time I did the monk pet build

it’s not like PoE-level stuff because management moved everyone off of RoS after it came out except for the 5 people who made necromancer but it was plenty of proof that whatever design they came up with still had room to do interesting things within the confines of their possibility space

anyway I’m glad they dumped all of it for 4 so people can masturbate about moody lighting again

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im really taken aback by how monochrome it is and not in like a cool diablo 1 way!!

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I would never describe Diablo 1 as monochrome, sure it’s got lots of dark hallways or whatever but it is punctuated all the time by lurid color

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If I recall correctly, Diablo 1 was one of the earlier popular PC games to use 65536 colors instead of 256

Ironically the “monochrome” aesthetic might be partly to show off the number of colors (with gradients of shade)

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sorry I was just being kind of general because one of the big things people said against D3 was “oh well DIABLO 1 WAS SO DARK AND GLOOMY WHY ISNT IT LIKE THAT” and as you two have pointed out IT REALLY WASNT LIKE THAT

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Skin door

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All I want is more Diablo

whelp, I did indeed play the shit out of this. it was pretty fun, but I don’t think it’s going to blow anyone away. as a game to buy and play through as a AAA map filler once or twice, I think it will do very well. it looks nice, it feels nice, its big, and its systems and pacing are well designed to that end. all the bloviating about how it is a ‘dark and gritty horror game’ or whatever was, predictably, well overblown. it’s a tick up from diablo 3 on that front, but only a tick. a giant corporate leviathan like blizzard is simply not capable of making what they promised they would make. I knew that. you probably knew that. so it wasn’t really expected. I do like the lone angel in the game being an overbearing selfish asshole, that’s kinda nice, even if very little in the game world reflects on that in any appreciable way. the story and world building is otherwise exactly as bad as everything else blizzard has done in the last 15 years. but, like most blizzard games, it is also very playable and satisfying in the moment.

as an actual diablo game, I am much less convinced. I’ve never been a real power player or whatever, but I do still have a lot of time in diablo games, and it is likely that I’ll get pretty wrapped up in the game for at least a while. luckily creating a good end game system is much easier to do post launch than anything else is, so it would not surprise me if a lot of things change over time. right now, it’s kinda rough. the skill trees are pretty simple. each skill has one upgrade that you have to take in order to access the next set of upgrades, of which you can only pick between one of two. there is never an option to get all the upgrades for a given skill, and the differences are not generally substantial. putting points directly into a skill itself only ever results in a flat upgrade to whatever it is the skill does. you have to take at least one basic skill no matter what, and you can’t take more than one ultimate skill no matter what. the passive skill nodes are generally pretty boring. there’s not a lot to go on.

most builds are completely item reliant, which means most items are strictly useless for any given build. you can rip a legendary power off of an item and transfer it to a new item, but you can only do that once per item and it gives you the lowest roll, which means you can easily just be stuck hanging on to a mediocre item forever because of one good roll on one legendary affix that you simply have to have. there are a lot of stats in this game, most of which are going to be useless to the character you’re playing, and any of them can pretty well appear on any piece of gear in any item slot. the only stat guaranteed to be on a piece of armor is armor value itself. there is no fixed primary stat roll that would work to make sure you’re eventually replacing a lower level item simply because its primary stat is too low. there are a lot of what I would call core stat systems like overpower, fortify, lucky hit, and vulnerable that are irrelevant for many builds. none of them are explained in game very well. gem benefits seem very minor.

the dungeons are very samey, simple, and slow paced. from what I understand, they make up almost the entirety of the end game play loop, and they’re the only randomized maps in the game. they all have backtracking and lock and key systems for some reason, and they’re all pretty divorced from the game world. I think they need a lot of work. they’re the biggest problem with the game right now.

oh, and the game is currently unbalanced as fuck. sorcerer is significantly better than the other two classes. bosses are very melee unfriendly, and barbs have to invest significant skill and item resources to gain any kind of defensive power. a lot of their builds just don’t seem to work.

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25 years later and Blizzard is still Blizzard

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I will never in my life forget the launch state of diablo 3 and the inferno difficulty fiasco, which was simply impossible to play as a barbarian. you needed a full defensive build and full defensive itemization to even be able to attack a single mob without instantly dying. I remember spending probably like 200 hours working through the first two acts on my shitty fucking barb with one auto attack ability, scrapping every tiny resistance upgrade I could, only to walk into act 3 and be instantly killed by one swing of the first enemy I saw. holy christ was that game awful at launch.

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I was under the impression that the preposterous Inferno wall was a transparent attempt to force people to use the almost hysterically greedy real money auction house.

it was, but even if you did that the anti melee design bias and the terrible itemization system meant that the game was almost impossible to complete as a monk and especially as a barb. you needed insane amounts of raw defensive stats and literally nothing else. you couldn’t use a single offensive ability outside of whatever basic generator you picked, and you could not use any item that was not purely defensive in nature. I don’t even remember at what point that changed in an appreciable way. they eventually heavily nerfed it and I think stratified it into different inferno levels that were meant to be reasonably farmable. by that point it was a workable game, the ranged classes were still strictly better but melee was viable. diablo 4 isn’t going to be anywhere near that disaster of a system, but there’s still an easily noticeable structural benefit to playing a ranged class.

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this might check me out of this more than anything else

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decided to get into poe today

oh sorry wrong thread

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diablo 3 made melee better later but it came via pretty blunt admissions the design didn’t work: all melee classes get a hidden 20% damage taken reduction before armor and stats come into play. it feels fine in practice tho i do think the high high tier rift push comps still use barbs as buff support and nothing else (this is irrelevant to 99% of players)

ironically path of exile does a worse job on this because every mechanic they introduce for melee defence (fortify, armor auras) immediately gets wedged into spell caster builds by the sickos in the community and they have to nerf it a few patches later, making melee even worse. it’s still doable but you gotta know a lot more about gear crafting and boss mechanics

i’ll have Loot Pervert Thoughts about diablo 4 in a few months, i wanna co-op it unprepared with my partner before getting all weird with it so i’m not like, jabbering about IAS breakpoints while she’s just trying to smash demons with a hammer. as much as i like path of exile i also love the idea of a co-op fantasy brawler with light loot perversion on the side so i’m not really coming to diablo 4 with expectations other than it hopefully feeling as fun to blast thru casually with a friend as d3 console did

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I definitely have no interest in a PoE style skill tree sicko game and just want a fun casual Dark Alliance experience with fancy graphics, and while in theory Diablo can provide this outlet it is always being bent by the theorycrafters toward ever further baroque spreadsheeting. I guess time will tell with this one.

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I don’t get it, melee was tedious and unbalanced from inception in Diablo 1. Given the structural nature of the problem, why are they still straining to make it work 25 years later, couldn’t they simply turn Monk into another ranged class by giving it “spirit fists” or whatever

Much as they have tried to, divorcing the numbers entirely from the fantasy would kill the game. It almost killed Diablo III, buried under abstractions that refer only through their parents to the idea of hitting demons with a weapon.

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also i wanna stress the “irrelevant to 99% of players” part in my previous post. you can slam and jam your way to greater rift 100 on pretty much every barbarian spec these days, no one is running zero dps support barbs unless they’re trying to do group speed runs

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In every game with a three-styles distinction since I tried all 3 classes in Quest for Glory as a kid, I always instinctively pick rogue or mage (usually rogue unless it looks like mage has 3x more options). So I guess it’s that I’m starting with a different fantasy to begin with