Bloodborne October/November Book Club

Yeah, you don’t have to parry Gascoigne, but like many of the bosses in Bloodborne, the boss is significantly more difficult if you don’t. I fundamentally disagree that he’s not there to train you to parry though. In fact I’d say it’s pretty much the only reason he’s there.

I agree the parry system in Bloodborne is the best of any of the Souls games out there, but it’s still not very good. Additionally, those windup animations and the times in which you can parry are typically only learned after dying to the boss a few times. I never had an experience where I was frequently successful at parrying on my first attempt with any of the bosses, even after knowing that a lot of bosses had windups. Because in most cases, the windups aren’t consistent from fight to fight. So there’s no consistent way to recognize, “ok, here’s something you can parry”.

As for dodging after a failed parry, about all I can say is you’re a better player than I am. I frequently got hit after attempting parries, even while doing it during a windup phase, and frequently because I’d be unsure if I actually hit the parry timing or not, so I’d pre-emptively dodge and then not actually get anything out of it (other than potentially slowing down the boss, which was actually disruptive to my own pacing of the fight, typically). Or, depending on the tracking of the attack, get hit after the pre-emptive dodge anyway.

That you complained about “covering distance” tells me you’re playing too defensively, there’s no reason to get away from Gascoigne’s first phase. If you opt for hectic close-range aggression and tolerate taking a few hits from him you’ll benefit from the attack regen and his stagger breakpoint instead. I really think Gascoigne is there to train the player in this core Bloodbornish aggression. To beat him you’re supposed to act like Gascoigne (a hunter himself) does.

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Except that with some weapons, particularly the cane, this is a really bad idea. The whip in particular trains you to stay away with your attacks, because it has a long windup and cooldown, but is useful because it has an extremely wide and long-range attack. With weapons that can have super armor like the Kirkhammer, the behavior you describe is useful. But with other weapons, learning this often doesn’t benefit you (in fact I’ve found that in most situations it just gets you killed faster). Playing defensively made the game possible for me and most bosses absolutely allow for it. There are only a few where you are made to feel like you’re constantly in a scramble, and depending on play style and ability, are either the best or worst encounters in the game as a result.

Additionally, as for building up stun, this is rarely if ever relevant in most fights. Gascoigne is one of the few fights where I found it to be consistently relevant, but most other bosses have durability that is so high that I was surprised when it happened rather than expecting it. Again, since there’s not a consistent way to know when you’re going to stagger them, it’s less helpful and more disruptive to a fight when the pacing suddenly gets interrupted. The only way I could “know” when I was going to stagger was when I was using weapons that nigh-guaranteed it, such as Kirkhammer charges (and then it’s really disruptive when you don’t get the stun because you learn to expect it).

There are very few fights as aggressive as Gascoigne, and while there are a few more in the DLC, scramble fights are the exception, not the rule.

Not including Chalice dungeons, in the base game I see three as scramble bosses (BSB, Gascoigne, and Gehrman). DLC I see Maria, and Orphan of Kos. I haven’t actually fought all of the bosses in the Chalice dungeons, looking at the list, but of the ones I’ve fought I’d still say scramble bosses are not common.

Also, just an experiential factoid - I remember people talking about how difficult Flamelurker was in Demon’s Souls, but found that using my shield was a good way to handle the frequent slams. Additionally, they had enough regularity and consistency in motion that I always felt like I could plan for them. Gascoigne reminds me very distinctly of Flamelurker but I think that’s also why the fight feels so different. Without a shield, it’s difficult to feel like you’re actually prepared for the attacks. You can know they’re coming, but because there’s not a guaranteed way of mitigating them (i.e. tracking can still sometimes get you even if you think you dodged at the right time), the fight takes on a very different tone, and feels like you have to handle constantly being rushed down. And yeah, I’m not very good at dealing with those sort of in-your-face situations. Probably why I’m also not very good at fighting games. I want to slow the pace of the fight down and play a zoned, control heavy game, but most matches tend to get decided on the scramble and how you play in those situations, and I don’t think I perform well in those situations.

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gascoigne’s attacks have a million years of startup in general. he’s very much there to train you to Try Parry. if you want to make learning the fight easier on yourself, using the music box three times forces him into beast mode, which means you only have to learn how to fight beast mode.

if you picked one of the faster weapons he’s not hard to just side/frontstep and r1 though.

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I guess I’d ask what the comparison is. Like, none of the bosses in any of the Souls games have anything that would be as fast as a fighting game, so is a long startup here in reference to frames of startup or to how they feel when compared against most other bosses? Because I think for the latter case bosses like Gascoigne feel much faster than the average.

the thing about reacting to startup is you have to be expected to have a cue to react to. for example, ‘20 frames’ is meaningless when there’s five different moves that all look exactly the same.

pretty much all of gascoigne’s attacks start with a lunging animation, which is reactable. some have longer pauses, some have movement durations, etc. and you parry or dodge all of them basically the same. they look imposing, but they’re not that difficult and have ridiculously huge parry windows. plus there’s lots of tombstones in the area to block movement with.

my favorite’s the one where he’s walking forward with the axe sparking against the ground for an uppercut. they reuse that one not too much later!

Yeah, the axe uppercut one is definitely one of the coolest. Sparks on the ground work really well.

While I agree that the cues can be reacted to, I still think it has a lot to do with timing, and the number of expected attacks. I think I’d say Gascoigne’s action economy is much higher over time than most other bosses (by which I mean the # of attacks over time is higher than most other bosses), in addition to the startup of attacks also being faster, even if they are, as you say, well-telegraphed.

i’ve played this game entirely too much and i have some beginner advice!

bloodborne is hard to pick up if you’ve played the souls games as those encourage defense and never over committing, ever

in bloodborne, 9 times out of 10 the best reaction to getting hit is to immediately counterattack and get your health back. it takes a while to lose that “oh i got hit better retreat and heal” reaction. thoughtless aggression will get you killed but when you’re up close be relentless and you’ll survive better than you’d think. if you’re using a heavy weapon absolutely swing through weaker enemy attacks, you’ll come out with most of your health back

also if you’re playing for the first time, take the axe. you can switch to another weapon later if you want but it’s never outclassed & has better than average health regen on hit when in 1h mode. it does solid damage to nearly everything and has good stagger for how fast it is

one of the things bloodborne does miles better than the souls games is having a very small list of weapons & minimal overlap in moveset. basically everything is useful if it clicks with you, some are just more reliant on enemy knowledge than others. don’t think of like, strength builds or dex builds, more just find a weapon that is Your Style and build around that.

stats contribute very little to your damage in the first half of the game because of how scaling is implemented, so first focus on getting a good bit of health & stamina + minimum stats for the weapon you wanna use, then worry about upgrading strength/skill/arcane. basically avoid bloodtinge on your first go, it’s not worth investing in unless you want to use a specific melee weapon & you have to go all-in on it to make it work. and you can’t get that weapon til 2/3rds thru.

(my fav playthru was an arcane build but i wouldn’t recommend that to anyone as their first go as that’s a nightmare without knowing enemy weaknesses)

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ng+ is so much easier than ng i am just pummeling through everything

my favorite dlc boss is living failures

also boom hammer +10 is some real booms

I played an arcane build on my first playthrough and once you get the Tonitrus and Augur of Ebrietas, the game is a breeze. I found all my weapon-based playthroughs a lot more frustrating after that, to be honest.

I still love some of the weapons in spite of this (Kirkhammer in particular), but while some of the early bosses are definitely tougher as an arcane build, I found the later bosses much easier, typically.

if you haven’t done stake driver amygdala you haven’t lived

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My lord, I can’t imagine trying to block Flamelurker in rage mode. He would eat your stamina for breakfast. Actually, my read on Flamelurker has always been that he’s the boss that’s supposed to teach you to stop blocking so much!

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FWIW I don’t even try to parry normal enemies, I ate through enough bullets trying to learn how to parry Father that… well let’s just say giving up trying to parry his early forms is likely the only reason I had the opportunity to parry his late one. From afar, and admittedly being terrible at it, making parry attempts a consumable feels borderline cruel. At one point I stopped trying to beat him to go farm bullets >_>

Also I got killed successfully parrying him a couple times as I still took the hit, how the hell one managed to dodge in time blows my mind.

Also also, aggressively attacking after taking a hit may be the worst advice I’ve heard about the game, and I’ve put like four or so hours into it so I’m clearly an expert. I think the main reason I started dying less is because I’ve made a conscious decision to not do that as probably 75% of the times I went “gotta strike to get it back” I went from 75% health to no health.

Also also also, this talk of wide parrying windows blows my mind as I’ve hit about one out of every five attempts.

You’ve all collectively convinced me that I’m doomed, and I’ve been doing so much better now that I’ve gotten away from that boss :frowning:

Final also, but I think Flamelurker is oddly the hardest DeS boss that I somehow generally managed to beat on my first or second attempt on each playthrough. I think the rage mode is an effective attempt at intimidation but if you keep your head about you it’s not too bad.

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to be fair you can’t really even parry most of the bosses so

Well, sorry my advice proved awful. In fairness I think my advice didn’t work for you because of one of Bloodborne bosses’ best qualities: one-dimensional cheese tactics don’t work and you have to go down further to a high level of nuance, micro-reassessing your tactics constantly.

My recommending aggression wasn’t intended as specific advice to force HP recovery – that’s only like 20% of the reasons aggression works well against Gascoigne and I mentioned it as a beneficial factor favoring a strategy rather than a tactic to pursue in isolation. My real point is that it’s very feasible to just deal more DPS to him than he deals to you over time in a close combat situation, whereas the more typical approach of trying to take zero damage from him by staying away and punishing him doesn’t work so well.

But getting that DPS higher than him won’t be automatic and there’s no way to shortcut understanding his patterns. I just think it’s the best strategy for taking advantage of your pattern knowledge when you do have it.

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Correction, I realized there actually is a one-dimensional cheese against Gascoigne. Use music box to convert him to his second form then spam him with firebombs.. I haven’t tried it but I think this should work, and I think it’s more cool than cheap. Who said From doesn’t do puzzle bosses anymore?

I mean the whole “and I’ve put like four or so hours into it so I’m clearly an expert” bit should have hinted at comedic hyperbole…

…and it wasn’t even aimed at your comment…

(edit: and I read this comment after I had already beaten the boss)

…but sorry if it came out harsher than intended.

(Also I only read the most recent set of comments just then, I haven’t had a chance to act on any of them.)

Anyways.

For me and my many many four hours of expertise, the whole “attack to rejuvenate health” mechanic feels more like a trap/desperation option than something to regularly attempt. It basically bates you (and by you I mean me) into attacking when you normally wouldn’t, and the reason you/I wouldn’t normally attack then is because you’re likely to get hit if you do so. Perhaps when one becomes rather good at the game it becomes more viable.

Anyways, when I re-boot up the game I’ll continue my quest to avoid a mini-gun long enough to retrieve about 5.5k soul… echoes(?) I lost because I tried to get my health back and died as a result.

Sure, I wasn’t exactly sure whether it was targeted at me and I felt like elaborating my point regardless.

As for the regen, I agree. The regen mechanic overpromises and is almost always better not to attempt unless you really really know what you’re doing. I had the same problem of dying constantly by trying it, then permanently gave up on it and almost exclusively used it after that to regen more health from freshly dead corpses.

To be fair the fact that it makes me roleplay a bloodcrazed hunter whose rage is not even satiated by death is pretty damn sweet, so I still like the mechanic purely for the flavor

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this is actually how i killed him my first time lol. Or rather, learned how to fight him to his second phase, doused him in oil while he was wolfing out, used the music box, and spammed him with cocktails. It felt GREAT.

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Even its normal use, baiting you into a frenzy of revenge, is such a perfect reflection of the game’s themes that I enter a state of designer bliss every time I think about it.

Give in to the beast, feel the rage, bask in the blood - but don’t lose your head…

I could envision the discarded Frenzy system being fed by health regain from reaction attacks, pushing the player to the edge.

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